Interview with Leo Lafleur
Summary
Leo LaFleur discusses the intersections of creativity and mental health with host Jenna Morton, sharing personal experiences and perspectives from his life. He emphasises the importance of creative expression and support systems in overcoming mental health challenges, and in finding and developing your creative voice. In the second part of the conversation, Leo discusses his collaborative work on multimedia projects and the value of collaboration, vulnerability, and a tremendous support system in his creative process. He also discusses the profound influence of the natural world in New Brunswick on his creative work and the importance of representing the place in his writing, art, and music.
Links and Citations
Transcript
Leo: I've actually kind of taken a little break lately from doing a lot of writing. And as you can probably tell, I'm more of a random creative person than maybe your typical writer, because I like to dabble and other things - in music and production and stuff like that. I am still hoping that I learned, you know, the every day at 7am thing or whatever, you know. *laughs* I haven't quite figured that out yet.
Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick (WFNB), a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.
Jenna: Welcome to the second episode of WordCraft - a podcast by the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. I'm your host Jenna Morton. On this episode, we delve into the world of the mystical and musical Leo LaFleur. Leo is an award winning writer from Saint John. His critically acclaimed youth series, The Errand is on reading lists around the world, and he's working to bring it to life on stage with an orchestra very soon. He's also at work on a major landscape book in collaboration with photographer Mark Hemmings. Welcome to WordCraft, Leo,
Leo: Thank you for having me. It is an honour to be here.
Jenna: Oh, thank you for joining us. I'm really excited to talk about your work and your craft. But first, I always like to kind of take it right back and start with, you know, those early days and those early moments. When did you first feel like you were a writer? And when did you first really feel like the world was going to be open to accepting you as one?
Leo: Oh, those are big questions. I first started writing songs when I was about 13, and looking back, they were pretty good, I think. You know, I didn't show anyone my songs at that time. I spent a lot of time in my room writing them, but not showing anyone. And so from there, I started a band in high school. But I still didn't show anyone my songs. And it wasn't until I hit my 30s that I started to kind of be brave and start showing people my work. But as a writer specifically, I didn't start writing until I was maybe in my late 20s (stories). And it was kind of a way to deal with mental health actually, because I had gone through some really difficult things, which is pretty common with creative people, I think. I had gone down the road of you know, kind of drugs and alcohol in high school and dealt with things. And you know, when I was in university, I was studying philosophy and great books. And I had basically a complete mental breakdown that lasted for several years. And so basically, I have to give a shout out to mental illness to kind of getting me going and thinking about writing stories, because it was catharsis for me.
I had met this incredible counsellor; her name is Kathleen. I'm kind of diving right in right away into the deep stuff. *laughter* So yeah, and she encouraged me. You know, I would send her emails and she would say, "This is amazing!" And so I was getting that feedback. I had that person, you know, that writers need, which I hadn't had up to that point. And I had no idea that I could actually create stories in that way. I could always write songs and I knew that, but this was a new thing. And so I kind of kept doing it, and then my friend Ashley suggested I reach out to Sheree Fitch with this kind of novel I was working on. And I thought, you know, this is crazy; she's never going to respond. And of course, she responded. She read it. She hooked me up with one of her editors. That particular novel - short novel, novella - didn't end up kind of going anywhere, as far as getting published goes. The Paris Review praised it, Goose Lane praised it. But it's kind of a weird thing that's difficult to market I think. And it's really not fitting for the Paris Review, anyway. I sent it there, because I had to. So Kathleen, kind of, you know, she was my counsellor and she got me going. And then Sheree Fitch - you know, having that, you know, this star Canadian writer say that your work is great meant a lot to me, for sure, and kind of kept me going even though I couldn't kind of publish at the time.
Jenna: I have to say, I've read Sheree’s liner notes or you know, her blurb on your book, The Errand and she's just, you can tell how in love she is with your writing, which is just fabulous. And so I think it's so important to have those moments, though, to talk about the impact that one person can have.
Leo: Yeah, yeah! She's a wonderful person. You know, there were many emails between us and she kind of put up with me, you know, I was still not really in a good state mentally and she was still very encouraging and very present. And that really kind of kept me going, I would say. Kathleen still - my counsellor - was kind of the most important person, but there are so many people that I'll never thank all of them because they're just...I have kind of a small list. But of course, there's the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, who's played a role in in supporting my work, ArtsNB, Music NB because we've created two musical scores for the first two books in The Errand series, which Sheree Fitch wrote that blurb for. And Canada Council is also in on that. Hillary Lad, Chuck Teed. Greg Hemmings - the CEO of Hemming House. He reads a lot of - most of - the stuff that I create now before I kind of send it out somewhere. Family and friends of course, you know, beta readers. Yeah, so, so many things.
But starting out with mental health stuff. You know, it really was kind of catharsis for me, and finding out that I kind of had that depth, and that I had a way to express the things that I was going through was really big for me, for sure. I was going through depression, anxiety, double depression, narcissism - all the things that creative people kind of go through often in their lives. These are common things, by the way, but you know, I have this kind of daily work that I get to do, where I get to be a part of just being present for people who are going through that. Because I had my family, I had this incredible counsellor that I found, or that found me. And without those things, you know, people end up in really, really tricky situations. And we don't think about the idea of choice. We don't think about that enough. You know, these people have no choice or if they do, it's not the same as most people. And without that supporting cast, I would have been much more of a train wreck than I was, and homeless, and, you know, kind of all those things, and so I'm very grateful for the supporting cast that I had around me.
Jenna: I think it's so important to have those conversations about the supporting cast. I love the way that you phrase that. And for me, personally, I'll share that one of the things - for me to get into the world of writing - that I did was a workshop when I was in school. And you know, an author came in and spoke to us and I was like, “Oh, how do I get to do that?” And from there on, everything kind of fell into place, because of that moment. I know you've been doing some workshops as well with students and children. And I'd love to hear a little bit about what that interaction has been like for you.
Leo: Sure. And very cool that you got to have that moment for sure. But I really just kind of started doing workshops. So we've been kind of building this project for the Imperial Theatre, which is kind of on hold right now. There are some stage elements that haven't quite worked out the way we wanted them to. But other elements have, that we’re able to use for workshops. So we wanted to create something that had elements of film and cinema, but was still largely a book, you know. So it has musical scores that go with my words and the illustrations perfectly.
And it's written by Rachel Kidd - she is the director at Sistema, and she is an incredible classical musician who puts up with me. I have - I'm a musician, but I have zero training. And so I basically talk in gibberish, and she translates it. And she does it very well. I mean, she's next-level kind of creative genius, and I don't use that lightly. I don't know if I have the authority to say that, but I definitely believe that. A very brilliant player, she wrote the scores, and I had the privilege of producing them. And they go with my books, and Hemmings House has created animation for those books.
And Tyler Warren Ellis also was an animator for those books and put everything together - he and I worked for hours. He's a nighthawk, so we weren't allowed to start until 8pm, and we would edit the illustrations with the music and the animations until three, four or five in the morning. And it was awesome. And he's incredible too - Tyler Warren Ellis. He's a cinematographer in Saint John. He works a lot with James Mullinger and that side of things.
So yeah, we put that together, and what I'm proud of about it is that the animations are very sparse, and the flow is very graceful - transitioning from one illustration to another - and so it allows the imagination to still breathe. And obviously, you know, you're fellow writers, so you're aware that this is a big problem in our culture, and in our society, where we're not really engaging our minds in the art that we're consuming, or the social media that we're consuming. And so I wanted…obviously, I still love film, and obviously I want that to be a part of that in my life. I'm actually thinking about..I've created a TV show, and we're going to be pitching it to Bell soon. So fingers crossed. And if Bell is listening, I hope you'll consider it.
Jenna: I've watched the promo clip that you've done with Hemmings House about this project you're working on. And it just looks incredible. And I can't wait til you guys can finish figuring out these little pieces so that it does someday come to life for everyone.
Leo: That actually is Tyler Warren Ellis who did that, and he was working on his own but Hemmings House is a part of the project with regards to the animation - just to give Tyler props for that.
Jenna: Thank you for that, no, that's important work. Yeah, it is. It just - it looks so interesting. And it actually kind of leads nicely to something that I've been thinking about. This series is talking about New Brunswick and New Brunswick creators and the role kind of back and forth, what that means to be in this place, and how does it influence your work? Because a lot of people would look at what you create, and it doesn't necessarily scream, "Oh, this was made in New Brunswick!" And so I'm wondering. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of New Brunswick that influences you and what you do as well. And so I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that.
Leo: Absolutely. So yeah, I mean, the people of New Brunswick obviously, and the nature has had a huge impact. But you're right. I mean, when I started out writing, and even with The Errand series, I wasn't like gung-ho about my home province or representing it in any way. Really. And maybe there was even something inside me that was against that, and I was still rebelling in some way and wanting to be somewhere else or wanting to be worldly or, you know, all those things that young people go through.
And I actually started reading a lot of Steinbeck. You know, everything, everything he writes: almost everything is based in the Salinas Valley and based around his home. And even though he spent the majority of the rest of his life in New York and other places, he was still writing about that. So I actually do write a lot about New Brunswick now. It's just not anything I've really broken through with yet. But I'm trying to publish a short story that's based in Saint John, right now. I'm getting good feedback, but no hits yet. I've recently created a book with Mark Hemmings who is a local and international photographer that's Saint John landscapes, and it's kind of poetic prose I call it - poetry. It's Saint John landscapes, but you know, with hints of the culture kind of woven in. And so, yeah, I've come to value that kind of writing a lot, and I think Steinbeck kind of influenced that for sure, and put that in my head.
And the politics here are really, actually fascinating and easy to kind of. I mean, it's a story book in itself, right? I mean, you can't make this stuff up, so it just goes right onto the page. It's really remarkable in that way, and there are a lot of people like Sheree Fitch, and David Adams Richards, and a whole slew of other people that I would be ashamed that I don't know, so many of them, unfortunately. It's hard to keep track of everyone, but so many people have definitely influenced me. In that way,
Jenna: You brought up the word - representation - and that idea that we don't always have to...I think sometimes we always think that we have to say a place name in our work for it to be representative of this place, but it doesn't. Just the fact that you live here and create these things make them part of this place. And I think it's really great for emerging writers and creatives to see the very different genres that you've dove into in your work already. And know that, "Oh, yeah! These things are of this place, too."
Leo: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. And no matter whether it's saying the name or not, you know, I can think of like, the example of nature that's influenced, or that had an influence in my work, and is represented. You know, like, the trees, you know, the bass woods and the elms and in the lindens - another kind of bass wood - and in the maples. They get in, and things like, that are very much from here, and the evergreens of course, too, and so many others. So stuff like that gets in, or I'm sure, within Rachel's writing of the music, even though there's obviously nothing explicitly stated, that's New Brunswick in it, I'm sure there is influence for her in the same way that kind of reached that stage.
So I agree totally. And the same with The Errand and so for me, a big thing is nature and trying - trying…not necessarily succeeding, but trying - to give it a depth. More of an old school depth to appreciating nature in that way. You know, this is a popular theme with writers, for sure. And I feel that passionately, because I remember my childhood and how important that was to me to be outside all day, and just running through the woods in the shadows and the lights and how that had an impact on my life. So if I can inspire someone to have that feeling or want to seek out that feeling more often, or be connected to it, through the writing, then it's a huge win. So, that's a passionate thing for me.
Jenna: I love that. Even just hearing you say those words, I'm like, "Oh, yeah! I need to get outside. I haven't been outside today.”
Leo: I went for a walk just before this meeting. That's my safe place. *laughter*
Jenna: It's really grounding and wonderful to stop and think about how much impact our words have on the people around us, and the greater sense of community that really does exist among creative types. And I'm wondering if you could maybe give some thoughts to people who are, maybe in this moment listening to us have this discussion, because they're looking for some spark that they need - something to get them going on the next stage of what they're creating.
Leo: Learn to be okay with being hurt. That's a big learning curve for me. You know, we're sensitive people; we're creative people. I went through the mental health stuff, and I mentioned I got really good help, and I'm kind of a success story. I’m a rare success story in that way, because it's hard to find the right people to help us. And so I feel like I got through and I'm very lucky, but in the creative process, I mean, even still, there are people who will blatantly tell me that they think my work is terrible. And you have to learn to kind of protect yourself in a way, but keep your heart open at the same time. You have to accept those. I mean, Leonard Cohen famously said that there's a lot of luck involved in finding any kind of success.
And I'm far away from any kind of large success, but there's definitely been a lot of luck in everything: my friend suggesting Sheree Fitch, you know, and her ending up writing a blurb for a book before we had a publisher that obviously helped. And, you know, these things lining up like that are lucky. There's definitely luck involved in that. And before that, I met Adam online; he was the illustrator, and I owe a lot to Adam. He was an artist of the year in all of the UK, and in the British fantasy awards. You know, he was already established, and he loved the first book in The Errand series so much that I couldn't afford to pay him the $10,000 to $15,000 minimum that it was going to cost to illustrate it. I was very poor, and still am mostly. *laughter* And so he asked his collectors to fund it, and that was a huge…like how lucky am I, you know? Like they read the story, and they're like, “Yeah, we'll get on board,” and they funded it. And that was a huge deal for me to have that and to be working with such an incredible artist. And so another kind of layer of luck just kind of bumping into this guy online - reaching out to people. So, you know, there's that famous quote of, “Fortune favours the bold - the brave,” and I think that would be my advice. The more you are willing to embrace getting hurt and embrace kind of putting yourself out there, the luckier you might find yourself.
Because that led to Sheree Fitch’s blurb and eventually - it was a hard road, it was like a year - we created the book ourselves. We made copies to send out, to sell a little bit. And it was maybe a year and we were basically in despair. It wasn't going to happen. And then we found a publisher. And so we've been published internationally with the first three books, and I'm working on the fourth now.
Jenna: I love that. I didn't realise you had a fourth. That was gonna be my next question before we kind of wrap things up is, what what's coming up? What are you working on that you can share about?
Leo: Yeah. So I am working on the fourth book slowly. And it's going to be…so the first three books are kind of very mysterious. They're kind of poetic fairy stories is what I kind of call them and there's not a lot of traditional detail. And what I wanted to create was this kind of thing that builds in mystery, and then you get rewarded with kind of more traditional detail down the road. And for some people, they love that. Kids especially love that, and it's kind of a mixed bag with adults. They open the book and they're like, “Well, how come I don't know anything about the main character?” and the books over. But there are those out there that love it, and that's the kind of idea that we've had going with it. And so the fourth book is a lot more. It's going to be probably in the 15,000 to 20,000 word range where the first three books are much less. So that's the difference, and that's kind of something I'm working on now.
I've actually kind of taken a little break lately from doing a lot of writing. And as you can probably tell, I'm more of a random creative person than maybe your typical writer, because I like to dabble and other things - in music and production and stuff like that. I am still hoping that I learn the every day at 7am thing or whatever, you know. *laughs* I haven't quite figured that out yet.
We got the grant for the third musical score for the third book, so Rachel is going to start writing and I'm going to start producing and we go through this kind of crazy email process back and forth, and then I'll go to our studio, and then we’ll talk about it. The first book, because it was kind of a new thing, it took a while to kind of lock in - months. And then for Rachel, it clicked and I was not really as necessary in the process anymore. Because, you know, she just kind of shot above me and was able to. I'm proud of the influence I get to have on it, and it's kind of this incredible, incredible thing for me, because music, and particularly score writing is so out of my league, but as a storyteller, I get to kind of inject things in and she is such a master at receiving information, and working it in. And listening! You know, she's a really good listener. So I feel very privileged to be a part of that, and she puts up with me, and that's also amazing. Because that's a thing for sure.
So those are things I'm working on, currently. You know, working on finding publishers is also a writer's job, and also it takes up a lot of our time: sending out emails and sending out manuscripts and things like that. I'd still like to find a publisher for that novella that I wrote. I still send it out now and again. I think it's the best thing I wrote *laughter* so far. So that’s where I’m at.
Jenna: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.
Leo: Hey, thanks for having me. Normally, I would ask you a bazillion questions. *laughter* It's not set up that way. I really appreciate it! This is a real privilege - for a writer to be able to talk about these things and to you know, be a writer in a public setting. We love that - for good and for bad, but mostly good. So much appreciated.
Jenna: Leo LaFleur is a Saint John based author, poet, musician and more. You can find more about his acclaimed series The Errand on his website, www.leolafleur.com.
Writers love to get out from behind our desks and spend time together. And coming soon is the perfect opportunity for that: WFNB’s cosy and scaled down autumn writers’ conference, WordsFall. This is where writers from all kinds of genres from all over New Brunswick and beyond will gather in one of our beautiful rural communities for workshops, social events, and opportunities to explore the host region together. WordsFall is taking place this year (2024) in Sussex, New Brunswick from October 25 through the 27th. You can join us for the whole weekend or just for a day to connect with your community and make progress on your writing goals. There are workshops for writers of all genres and all skill levels. For more information or to register right now for your spot at WordsFall - or the next Writers’ Retreat, see our upcoming events at WFNB.ca/events.
Coming up on the next episode of WordCraft, I'll speak with Len Falkenstein, Director of Drama at the University of New Brunswick, Artistic Director of Notable Acts Theatre Company.
