Interview with Terry Armstrong
The Importance of Local Community, Global Reach, and Learning from Failure.
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Summary
Terry Armstrong discusses his diverse writing career, from songwriting to novel writing and scriptwriting. He shares his initial inspiration from a college professor and the importance of both positive and negative feedback in his development. Terry emphasises the value of alpha readers and the importance of writing for an audience, not just for oneself. He highlights the opportunities in New Brunswick for writers, despite the challenges, and stresses the need for writers to market their work globally. Terry also reflects on the lessons learned from failures and the importance of writing responsibly for readers.
Links and Citations
Transcript
Terry: So I was just like, "Yeah, dive in!" Right? I didn't want to do music anymore. So what am I going to do? Go back and get a real job? Nah, screw that! I'm going to finally learn how to write a novel, which was really hard. *laughter* So it's like, really hard. I'm not going to tell anybody, "Man, writing is easy." Oh, I told you, script writing was easy. It is easy - compared to writing a novel. Wow.
Tosh: The voices of New Brunswick writers are the heart of WordCraft, a podcast aimed at creating community through words. WordCraft is a creation of the Writers' Federation of New Brunswick, a nonprofit organisation that helps New Brunswick writers to write, acquire skills, and showcase their talents to the world. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor. The WFNB acknowledges that the land on which we live, work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. And we honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship. We acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts.
Jenna: Welcome to the fifth episode of WordCraft. I'm your host, Jenna Morton. This season, we're exploring what it's like to live and work as a writer in New Brunswick, engaging creatives in several different genres and conversation. The spotlight this episode turns to Terry Armstrong. Terry is a full time writer, editor and writing coach - with a career path that ping pongs from having his music on Dawson's Creek to winning the Jacob Zilber [scholarship] for Screenwriting to his Amazon global best selling science fiction romance series published under the name Cary Caffrey. Welcome to WordCraft, Terry.
Terry: Thank you so much. This is a pleasure. It's a treat.
Jenna: I'm really looking forward to this discussion, because you have had so many different writing hats on in your career, already. You've been a songwriter, a scriptwriter, author, coach, editor. I would love to know more about all those shifts, but I'd really like to know where did it all start? When was that first time you were like, "Oh, I can write things."
Terry: Okay, that's an easy question. You know, like most people who write, I always wanted to write. That's so boring, but it was when I was in college, and I was doing just a literature class, and really just bored with the assignments I was being [given]. I realised I don't like writing essays about old, other dead writers, and so I wrote a science fiction story instead and gave it to my teacher, and it was the craziest thing. I didn't think much of it. It was just like a four page whatever. And the next day I expected to be reprimanded; he came running down the hall at me, waving my story, and he was like, "This is so good. You have to do this; you have to write!" And I was like, "Really? Okay!" And it was literally one of those moments. I hadn't thought about doing it. I love to read. I always thought it would be really cool to write a novel. But, you know, I didn't...I think, like most people, you never think that you can do it. I mean, certainly in my household, growing up, I was taught that, no, that's for other people, that's for smarter people. That's for 'writers'. Writers are put on pedestals and it's ridiculous; it's stupid. They're just people. They're not smarter than anybody else; they're not more brilliant. But, you know, that's the way I was trained. So I didn't think I was worthy, right? But he changed my mind, and that day, I signed up for the bachelor's program at Concordia University, which was an amazing program. That place was so good, and then it was kind of off to the races. And that's where it started. So yeah, I got a big nudge, you know, from the right person. So there you go.
Jenna: I love that. I find most of us have that person or that moment for various things, and hearing about it just sparks your thoughts of how many people are out there waiting to find that person and at what point it's going to happen. So thank you for sharing about that.
Terry: There's another side to that story. Like, it was wonderful having that person who you know, came running up to me and said, "Oh, you have to do this." But the people who made it possible weren't those people. It was literally - it's kind of weird - it's the people who said to me...can I swear on this program? *laughter* "What the f*ck are you doing? This is garbage. Stop it!" Okay, so it's all great to have the person who's shoving you out the door, but you really need those other people who are like, "Cut this crap out!" Right? So anyways, so yeah, and those are some of my other professors at Concordia University...who were great people and they meant it from...You know, it's funny to talk about people telling you those harsh things, but it's coming from a place where they want you to get better, and they want you to kind of like...wake up to what you're doing. So, yeah, I'm sure if you talk to some of my editing clients, they'll go, "Yeah, yeah, that's the way he edits!" Yeah, you know, this is like one of my clients wrote a really nice essay about how I am, and I was like, "Oh my God! Did I sound that harsh?" but one of the things I said to her was like, "Why am I reading this?" You know? And it was from the same place, [and] you need people to say stuff like that. But anyways, long answer, short question, there you go. That's me!
Jenna: I love it though! I think it is. It's important to have both those voices happening and listen to them both.
Terry: Oh yeah! Yeah, you have to listen to them. Ironically, sometimes when I'm working with writers, I think the voice that is hardest to listen to is when we're telling people, "No, you're doing...this is good. This is what you're supposed to be doing!" And I try to show people why it's good, why it's working, because they still have that programming. And then where it's like, Oh no, writing is for other people, you know. So that's a hard thing. It's hard to learn to kind of analyse your own work.
Jenna: What advice do you have for writers who are kind of struggling with that part right now? I think a lot of people who are going to listen to this podcast are people who are looking for inspiration, who are feeling like they're trying to get into the role of writing. How do they find those people to help push them in the right direction?
Terry: They're all around you. You know, it can be anybody. I don't know if you know who Bill Hader is. He used to be on Saturday Night Live. He wrote the amazing HBO series, Barry, and he gave some advice. I saw him on just a YouTube clip, and he said, "You can show your stuff to anybody, and they're going to tell you what you need to know. They don't have to be a writer, they don't have they don't have to have inside knowledge or whatever." And he said, "If something's wrong, they're going to tell you, and they're going to be right!" They might not be able to tell you why it's wrong, and they're always going to follow it up, especially with the people who are not writers - even writers - they're gonna also give you the solution. And he said, "You know, when they tell you something's wrong, they're right. They won't necessarily know what it is, but it's up to you now, go, go look at it. But when they give you the solution, ignore it. They're always going to be wrong. You have to find the solution." Right? And I heard him say that on YouTube, and I shared that video with so many people, because I thought this is the best advice, because people ask me all the time, "Where do you get beta readers? who's going to read your stuff?" And I tell people, "Anybody you ask, Who agrees to read your work is a valuable reader." Right? But the thing is, you have to make sure they actually read it, because, you know, lots of people say, "Oh, yeah, I'll read your stuff," and then they don't read it. They're useless, but the people who actually read your stuff? Listen to them, ask them questions, right? Especially the asking the questions part - I think that's a hard thing to do: "What about this? Did this work? What about that?" It's so important to ask questions about things you have doubts about, right? But you don't need paid beta readers. You know? I also hate the term, by the way, 'beta readers'. People misuse it all the time. I like 'alpha readers', but that's a whole nother thing. You can get inspiration from anybody who's willing to read it, because, for me, a really interesting thing happens when I'm listening to somebody who's read my stuff and I realise, "Wow! They actually read it," right? They didn't just kind of read and go, "Oh yeah yeah yeah. That was interesting." That person didn't read it. But when they can start mentioning specific parts in your book - in your story - and then you go, "Oh, God, connecting! That part's connecting," right? Once you have that experience with somebody who's read your stuff and really read it, and you can talk about it. They're going to tell you things about your story that you didn't even know you put in there. And that's really fascinating, right? My wife is like that. She's an amazing reader, and so I'm really lucky to have her for so many reasons, but she'll tell me information about backstories of my characters, and I'll be like, "Of course, I meant that. Of course, I planned that all along!" You know, I hadn't even thought about it, but I don't know if that really answers your question, but I think it's just important. You got to get people reading your stuff, and you got to listen to them. You have to ask questions, and you have to be willing to ask questions. Like, you know, we all have doubts, right? So if you have doubts, ask about them. Don't avoid them, right? I think a lot of people are hoping that, well, if nobody mentions it, it's okay, right? If nobody picks up on that, you know? I mean, I'm like that. I went for years with my first novel where I kept thinking, "One day somebody's going to realise how flimsy this plot is," you know? Because there is this one moment in the story. It was like, literally strung together and nobody mentioned it for years and years and years. And then one day on Goodreads, I caught a one star review, and somebody had picked it up, and it was like, "Finally somebody saw just how stitched together this plot was," you know, so it was funny, but anyways...
Jenna: I think for a long time, writers have thought, "I need to keep this to myself until it's done. I need to perfect this before I put it out there and let someone read it."
Terry: Keep it...yes, hang on. Keep it to yourself until it's done? Very important, but to keep it until you perfect it? Nonsense! Waste of time. So the best reason to keep it to yourself until it's done is because you're going to want to share it with people. So use that as motivation to finish your draft. But once your draft is done, start showing it to people in its rough stages. That's what I call alpha readers, right? Because, but at that point, you're not married to it. You don't even remember what you wrote. Especially if you write a 100,000 word novel and you write a draft, you don't remember what was on page 42. That's out of your mind, right? So you get somebody to read it, and they're going to pick it up, and you're going to be like, "Did I write that?" You got to flip back to the book, right? That's some really good advice, and not coming from me. That comes from a book I read by Dorothea Brandt called Becoming a Writer. And she talks about that: keep it to yourself; write it as if nobody's ever going to see it, like you're hiding it under your pillow at night, and that way you can write the secret things that you are afraid of revealing to anybody as well. So it's not just motivation to finish it. It's like you want to be honest in your writing, and you don't want to be thinking, "Oh, what if Steve reads this? Steve might get angry." Who cares? But Steve, right? He'll get used to it. But, yeah...hide it away. But perfection? Ugh! You should see me with my writing partners. Like, I literally will type all week and send it without even looking at it, and that freaks people out. When I teach my novel writing class, I get people to do that because I tell them, "If you spend the week polishing, you're not going to get anywhere." So you have to just write, send it off; don't even look at it. Move on to the next thing.
Jenna: I think that's great advice. I love that. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it's like to be a working writer, living in New Brunswick.
Terry: It's a great place to live and work. I moved here pretty much to write, and I was living in Vancouver at the time. And so obviously Vancouver, when I moved here, in 2008 was a way more expensive place. And so moving here was cheap. It was a lot cheaper to live here - certainly a lot cheaper than it is now. So because I was kind of done with what I was doing in Vancouver - I was a musician. I was done playing clubs and touring and doing that stuff. It was time for a change. We came here. I mean, I was in my 40s, and it was like, "Do I really want to keep doing this in my 50s? Nah." And so yeah. It's such a wonderful, inspiring area. So it's not just cheap. Culturally, it's amazing. It's very artistic here. It's a very supportive community for artists, right? And I really got that vibe when I came here, and I still get that vibe, and I love it. I love feeling like I'm part of a community of artists and writers, and that's great. So it's a great place to live and work.
Jenna: What kind of challenges are there as well? What do you think we could work on as a community to make this place better for writers?
Terry: Oh, I don't...It's funny...the challenges are very subjective. I don't see any challenges. When I moved here, one of my primary sources of income was doing graphic design. I was doing a lot of marketing work in the music industry in Vancouver. I didn't even tell people that I moved because at that time, in 2008 the internet was very established. I still had a landline, but it was an internet phone. I didn't have to change my number to work here. I didn't even tell any clients that I moved.. So I had already adopted this idea of, "We live in a world where it doesn't matter where you live to work." My clients, when I first started doing work in Vancouver, they used to come over to my place a lot, and as the years went by, nobody came by. You could deliver everything digitally, right? And so,when when I moved here, all I needed was a good internet connection. And that's still the way I am as a writer here living in New Brunswick. We live in an age where you can, on your own, distribute your work digitally to a global community of readers, so where you live has more to do with, "Where do you want to live?" Rather than, "Where do I need to be to work?" My cover designer lives in Berlin in Germany. My editor is in Toronto. It doesn't matter where you are. We live in an age that even if you go through a third party publisher - which I will not call traditional publishers, that's a whole other thing. If you know me, you know how I feel about that: traditional publishing died in the 80s. Thank you very much. I'm sorry if I anger people by saying that, but it's true. Yeah...where was I going with that before I sidetracked my own rant? Oh yeah! We live in an age where yeah, it doesn't matter where you live. That's what I was gonna say - for distributing your work. Even if you're a third party publisher, they're doing the same thing I'm doing. Everything's print on demand.
Jenna: Well, and like you say, New Brunswick is a great place to live for lots of practical reasons, but also the community that's here for.
Terry: It's amazing. It's wonderful. Yeah, the people are so friendly here. So much more friendly than Vancouver. You know, it took me 15 years to make friends in Vancouver. Maybe that says more about me, I don't know.
*laughter*
Jenna: It just says you found your people here, right?
Terry: Exactly!
Jenna: I'd love to talk a little bit more. We touched on the fact that you have various hats and various styles of writing and things that you've done. Can you talk a little bit about the different things you've done and your journey in writing?
Terry: Yeah, sure! It's pretty easy to explain. I started when I went to - like, I said, - Concordia to do my Bachelor's in Creative Writing. I kind of started thinking I was going to write novels, and then I discovered screenwriting and I'm very lazy. And when I discovered script writing, I was like, "Oh, my God! You write so many fewer words," and your role as the writer is so much more reduced, because they don't want you to write everything. You know, the costume designer, the director, the set designers - they want to put in all of their two cents, and you only ever put on the page what is absolutely essential to the screen, right? And I was like, "Well, this is so much easier," because you can write a screenplay in a week. A novel takes a couple months to write a draft. And so I was lazy, so I got into script writing. And right off the bat, that kind of provided - it sounds weird, but - it seems so much more open to get into. I mean, the first screenplay I ever wrote - I was so lucky. I was like, 23; I didn't know what I was doing, and I sent it off and I sold it. I sold the rights to it. It never got made, or anything like that, but I was like, "Oh, this is easy!" And turns out - it wasn't easy, because this is back in the 90s, and this was still in an age where they were very much gatekeepers. Like, if you're a writer, you couldn't just write. Now, if you're a writer, you can write and you can make a living. You don't need to listen to any of the gatekeepers. You want to put something out? You put it out. But that was then, and so even though I was kind of starting off strong. I sold the script. I got an agent - you know - things were happening, but a few years later, everything kind of stalled. I had a kind of early development deal with another film company, and that fell apart. Things were just starting to get going, and then they were falling apart, and I got really discouraged. It was only about five years into my attempt at becoming a writer, and at that point I was kind of a professional writer, right? But I was so frustrated. I remember I was sitting down to write a pitch for a Neon Rider episode - I don't expect anybody to even know what the hell that was - and it was just this stupid TV series nobody watched. Nobody cared, but it was Canadian, and I knew I could get it to the people and I was like writing it, going, "What are you doing? You hate this show. You don't want to write this. You don't want to do this." So I kind of gave up, and at the time, I was a musician as well, and music was kind of taking off for me, and I discovered in music, it's like, "Wow!" you don't need the gatekeepers. I can be in a band. I can write songs with my wife, and we were in a band together, and we worked really well together. And people were kind of digging what we were doing. We could record, and we could produce our own records and get distribution, and in 1996 we kind of went full time doing that, and we managed to make a little kind of media empire around our band, and so we were making a living. And so I kind of gravitated to that because of the whole DIY thing and the indie movement within the arts, because I have never given a crap about getting signed to a publisher or a label. I just want to do good stuff, right? And when you sign to third party publishers, they always want to tell you what to do. And it's just like...if you know me, I'm literally just like, "I don't care!" It's just like, somebody's telling me what should be done. And it's like: yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I'll do what I want to do. I'll go over here and do it myself. Maybe I'll make less money, but I'll be happier. So music was great, and it provided for like, 15, 18 years, just an amazing opportunity. And we got into it just totally by accident - publishing music - and because people were finding us, and that taught me a lot about marketing, and that's a whole other conversation. Because I was like, "Wow! If you make something that people like and are interested in, they are out there looking for it, and they will find it." And we kind of got found by this guy who was making these mountain biking videos and doing really well. And he put our music on the mountain biking videos, and they were getting distributed all over the world. And then people were hearing that, and other publishers started to approach us, and it kind of just went crazy. Next thing you know, we're like, every week getting a call from Sony...I don't know what part of Sony, not Sony Music, but I guess the movie division. And, they put us in so many things. It was great. So that's how that happened - just kind of fell into that. And again, at the time I was also working, because the work I was doing for our band, I was working for producers in the music industry and publishers, doing marketing stuff. So I kind of got into that whole world, if this makes any sense, until I got sick and tired and bored of it and quit. And then I was literally watching CNN in 2010 when people watched CNN. I saw this story about this writer - this young 20 something writer - sitting in a cafe. And she was just writing her books and putting them up on Amazon, andShe was selling a half a million copies. And I was just like, "What? I have to look into this," because at the time, as a musician, you couldn't just put your music on Apple Music. You needed to go through a publisher. There were still gatekeepers for iTunes. And then I go look at Amazon, and I assumed it was the same thing. [But] it was like: no, gatekeepers, no cost, no fee. It's free, and it's working. And I did some research, and found that she wasn't alone. There were all these indie writers doing this stuff, and at the time, I was full-on into the indie movement. So it was just like, yeah, dive in, right? I didn't want to do music anymore, so what am I going to do? Go back and get a real job? Nah, screw that! I'm gonna finally learn how to write a novel, which was really hard. *laughter* So it's like, really hard. I'm not gonna tell anybody, "Man, writing is easy." Oh, I told you, script writing was easy. It is easy compared to writing a novel. Wow. So I don't know what your experience of writing novels is, but...
Jenna: I've written a novella, and I had the same experience. I had someone reach out and ask me to help them with a script for a movie. And I was like, "I've never done this, but sure," and I did it. I was hooked exactly the same way. I'm like, "This is so much easier."
Terry: Oh, it's great.
Jenna: I could do this all day,
Terry: Although now the past couple years - I've been trying to get back into script writing. I'm finding it hard in the opposite way, trying to teach myself to write less. Stop putting in all the subtext. That's for the actors. The actors need to act the subtext. You can't write all the subtext.
Jenna: Oh, yeah. There was a lot of mine that got X'ed out from the person.
Terry: Oh yeah X-X-X What are they doing? What do we need to see? Write what we see. That's it, you know, but that's been a whole interesting kind of relearning experience, going back doing that. I'm loving it.
Jenna: Yeah, no. I think it's fascinating how versatile the world of writing is. When you stop to think of all the different avenues people go through, and how many writers touch on so many of those aspects throughout their career.
Terry: Yeah, there's so many opportunities. Yeah, it really...okay I'm going to anger some people now. It makes me so mad all the time when I go to a writing conference and there's some keynote speaker talking about how hard it is to make a living as a writer now. I'm going, "There are so many opportunities now! Stop discouraging these people. Show them all these amazing opportunities." I had a meeting with a producer last year, and then with a film company. You know what they asked me? They said, "Do you know any other writers?" you know? And then there's the whole video game world, which I know a lot of people are going to roll their eyes at, there's amazing opportunities in so many different forms of writing. And yes, video games tell amazing stories. I would have never written my series - my science fiction series - if it wasn't for the game Mass Effect, because it was such an influence on me. The story, still to this day, blows my mind: the writing, the level of writing, the scope, the characters, the plots. It's just amazing. So there's so many avenues for writers that aren't just novels or short stories, memoirs. There's so many things to do, and to experience. I hope people listening to this, who are writers, who want to be writers, are also readers - people who enjoy experiencing great stories and kind of learn that there's great stories that are being told all the time. I've become a huge fan. I'm going to admit this now nobody's going to respect me ever. They probably don't already, but I'm a massive Survivor fan as of last year.
Jenna: Oh! Interesting.
Terry: And I've become fascinated by the way they construct narratives within that show, which is, yes, a reality show, which you can look...
Jenna: It's one of the original ones though. I remember when it first came out and the first two seasons were just like, "This is the most fascinating psychological crazy," before it became so formulaic. So I'm very curious. I haven't watched in ages. Now, I'm gonna have to go see what's happening now.
Terry: This is...when I find something I like, I consume it. So there's been like, 46 seasons? I've seen them all - some of them a couple of times. Because I'm fascinated by how they break people down, and that's the lesson I took from that. It's like...so many writers struggle with the willingness to have their characters fail and break them. And that show is all about breaking people until they're just snivelling, crying, miserable, you know, "Take me out of here. Bring the helicopter! I want to get off this island!" Right? And that's why I love it. I always want to do a workshop or a class on it. And I keep mentioning it to people, and they just look at me like, "What?"
Jenna: Oh, Sign me up. I'm in. I'm there.
Terry: Okay!
Jenna: We're kind of coming up to the end of our time here. What haven't we touched on that you really want people to take away about writing and writing in New Brunswick?
Terry: Well, I think I've said everything I can say about New Brunswick...actually, no. I'll say this about New Brunswick. You're a writer in New Brunswick. That doesn't mean your audience is in New Brunswick, right? I did some work for a guy who was writing a book and just selling it to local shops. I was like, "Dude, like, there's a world out there of readers that want to be transported to these magical places that we create in our minds, right? And like, you need to get the book to not just people who know New Brunswick, but the people who have never been can never come." And he was kind of like, "Oh, I never thought about that," And I encounter that a lot, where New Brunswick books are marketed to New Brunswick readers. And I'm like, to me, that's a crime. That's like, no, no, no, no, no. You got to get your books out there to the people who want to read them. So, I'll throw that out there. And the other thing I want to touch on, if I can think of one thing is, don't be afraid of failure. Like I said towards the beginning. What started me was that really enthusiastic professor who ran at me and said, "You have to do this." But it's the failures in my life, in writing, you know? Well, yeah, yeah, the failure. It's a failure. Failures that if you're willing to examine them, will teach you what you need to know, and I'm going to swear again, okay, because I remember just before I gave up in the 90s, I was like, I'm never going to make it in the movie business, but I had this meeting with an agent. She had read this movie I'd written, and she says to me, "Hey, why are you wasting my fucking time?" Right? And I was like, "What?" And the weird thing is, I hadn't come to her unsolicited. It was the movie company that brought us together, because they were like, "Oh, you need an agent. I know somebody," so they set up this meeting, and I was kind of like, "Really? What's going on here? I didn't ask for this meeting. What do you mean? What do you mean wasting your time?" But she looks at my script, she goes, "Nobody's gonna make this. I can't sell this. What are you doing? Nobody knows who you are. Do you know how much it would cost to make this movie? This would be, like, $150 million!" That was in, you know, 1990s money, right? And at the time, I was 26 years old. I wasn't thinking about stuff like that. I was just like, "Oh, I've got this crazy idea for a movie script." And, I love big blockbusters, so I wrote a big, crazy blockbuster about Santa Claus. Who's gonna make that? Right? You can argue now that they've done movies. Hey, Tim Allen, he did all those crazy, big budgets, but they're not going to hire me to do it, right? So that meeting changed my life, because it got me thinking outside of my own bubble for the first time, right? And I learned so much from that, and I applied that in everything I did since then. The very first time I ever got up on stage playing with my band, after three songs, we got yanked and I was 17 years old, [we] got pulled off the stage at some crappy bar. And again, that made me think. I was like, "Oh, I'm not just playing in my basement for my friends. I have a responsibility to the people I'm asking to pay attention to me," you know. And so when I write, I keep those lessons in my head, and when I write something, what I'm doing is I'm asking for people's willingness to donate their time to me, to sit and listen to my nonsense, my drivel, you know? my private passions. And, so whenever somebody reads my book or listens to my music or something like that, I'm so grateful. And, whenever I sit down and write something, all I can think about is [that] I want to do right by these people. I'm doing this for them. I'm not doing it for me, but that's what those failures taught me. It's like, "Stop. Get out of your head."If ...you just want to have fun on your own, you can do that in your bedroom or wherever, right? But you know, when you go out in public, you're doing it for them, right?
Jenna: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this, Terry.
Terry: No thank you! This was a lot of fun.
Jenna: Terry Armstrong is a writing coach, editor, musician, and one of the many talented writers who’ve led workshops for the Writers’ Federation of New Brunswick. For more on upcoming events, and activities that are open to members and non-members, you can visit www.wfnb.ca/events. And if you’ve enjoyed this discussion, please leave us a review, share this with a friend, and keep listening for our final episode of Season 1 of WordCraft, coming up with poet, Sue Sinclair.
Tosh: WordCraft is a project by the nonprofit Writers' Federation of New Brunswick. The show is hosted and produced by Jenna Morton with technical production by Tosh Taylor, we acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts. The Writers' Federation of New Brunswick acknowledges that the land on which we live work and gather is the traditional unceded territory of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw peoples. We honour the spirit of our ancestors' treaties of peace and friendship.
